Another Bush Thread

[clockworkengine]

Man, every time I turn around I realize how much I cannot stand living under the presidency of George W. Bush. It seems like each action he makes is carefully engineered to harm and/or defy the American public. Does anyone else feel like 'ol Gump just does whatever he wants and says "Fuck the populous"? I'm tired of it. I can't wait for the democrats to wave the wands of logic and correction in 08 and give us a country to be proud of. However, I have the sinking feeling that this Bush will be the first president to break the 2 presidencies rule. Why? Because something will probably happen soon that'll put the US in some kind of martial law where the rules go out the window. And that something will probably be more "terrorist activity". Why do I feel that way?


Well, sometimes I don't think Bush is as dumb as he appears to be. Sure he bumbles and gets words wrong, but he's got an iron fist when it comes to the agenda of the US military as well as the business of other nations. So don't be surprised if we see some unprecedented situation occur within the next year that extends this fool's regime another four years.

I read an article today about how embryonic stem cells can restore organs and other things. If these stem cells truly are the master key to our genetic code then mastery of said key could lead to all manner of medical milestones such as natural organ and limb regeneration and surely many more as well. Doesn't it thrill you to know that such research is finally beginning to reveal its possibilities? Well how does it make you feel that Bush vetoed the bill that would increase funding on such research and promised to veto any other related bills that might arise? Does it sound to you at all like he might be insane? And before you think "well stem cell research kills the embryo so let's avoid it", know that they're hot on the trail of a method for extracting cells without destroying an embryo (source: Mississippi Public Broadcasting, 90.3 FM), so with just a little time we could have a harmless wellspring of healing and regeneration that certain closed minded presidents are working to eliminate!

[wilthrill]

Well about the embryonic stem cell research...

First, the private sector is FREE to fund as much embryonic stem cell research as they want. And strangely enough, if I'm not mistaken, the private sector has funded a hell of a lot of research with ADULT stem cells which BTW are a lot more useful currently than the embryonic stem cells. Adult stem cells have actually led to treatments (bone-marrow for example) that extend life.

Believe it or not, there are actually REAL MORAL DILEMAS with "growing replacement humans/parts" especially when you are using EMBRYOS to do it. Even if you think of an embryo as merely tissue surely you must realize the implications of doctors "playing god". If not go rent the DVD "The Island" or better yet read Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World". Is it so beyond reason that some people might actually disagree over this issue and those who equate it with murder on the front end or "playing god" on the tail end might not be so hot on the idea of FUNDING what they disagree with??

Secondly, Bush has spent MORE federal dollars on embryonic stem cell research than ANY US President!!!


Oh and ps, surely you jest when you say you are waiting for the democrats (read Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Clinton, Harry Reid etc) to wave the wand of "logic". Next you'll tell us you're waiting for Rosie O'Donnell to be named Playmate of the Year amd win Ms Congeniality at the Miss America pagent. Or perhaps Alec Baldwin as Father of the Year???? You slay me.....

[clockworkengine]

Nice response. This is exactly what I was looking for; a logical contradictory response. In fact, I never really thought of "playing god". Unfortunately, this is America, not heaven. We are not immortal and it is our job to find every method possible for increased survival. I mean, I love God as much as the next guy, but I don't consider healing methods to be playing god. We are using our intelligence to further our development as a species and I apologize if my methods seem "evil" to the republican party who defines the word. I am a living being, as you are, and my life is everything to me. Just like yours. If I lose an arm, I'd spend a lot of time wondering if there would ever be a way to regain it. God does not want us to be stale, ignorant cowards to him. He wants us to use what he has given us, and he wishes us the best as a species, and as his children. Don't give me any crap about playing god when we're just trying to live and stay in one piece. I don't think that's too much to ask. And furthermore, as a human and an American, I should have that right. Think about it: if you lost your arms, how would you publish your opinions online? Stem cells, man. Stem cells.

[The Good Reverend, MATCHEW]

** i didn't read the entire response from either post but......

I wonder sometimes what "playing God" is exactly.

I mean.....if we have the resourses and know-how to do something...
wether it's make a fire or stem cell research, why not do it? God is who put us and the available resourses here, right?
I really don't see the differance. They were both uncharted territory at some point during man's existance.
Am I right?

Hell, people thought you'd explode if you went over 35mph at one point.
I'm sure some thought we were playing God then, as well.


The REAL question when it comes to such matters, I think,....is should we.......

[clone9]

strangely enough a mere 3 days ago Dubya Gump changed the continuity plan giving the White House control to run the 'shadow government' in case of a nuclear strike against Washington...it was previously the responsibility of the dept. of homeland security but not anymore bc Dubya Gump is "The Dictator" uh I mean "The Decider"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...050902719.html

[wilthrill]

Well the term "playing god" has been used by medical ethicists ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE for decades now. It is NOT a "republican" term.

Secondly with respect to EMBRYONIC (above someone tries to say republicans are against stem cell research. In fact I know of NO ONE who opposes adult stem cell research.) stem cell research and playing god I am talking about two problems. On the front end is an embryo a life? And if not then would it be ok to clone whole humans for parts? That movie The Island was about exactly such a scenario. It doesn't have to happen but it is something to be concerned with. On the back end what is off limits as far a genetic "tampering". I'm sure we'd all agree that eliminating a horrible disease or disablity poses very little ethical problems. But what else is fair game? Perhaps I'd like my kid to be blond-haired and blue-eyed. Perhaps I'd like to make sure he isn't gay (assuming a genetic marker could be found). Where does it end?

These are genuine concerns that any THINKING person would have and they transcend petty politics.

[clockworkengine]

Yes they are valid concerns, but let's not let a few abusers prevent us from mastering our race. One day there will be genetic and nucleic crime and punishment just like there is for everything else.

So far Wilthril I like most of your ideas. But just as you quietly state that I'm not a THINKING person, so I openly state that all you would ever do is think. Sometimes thinking reaches a place where only action can bring the situation to convention. But to all those "THINKING" people out there, keep up the good work.

And by the by, sure, some movies might seek to warn us about the dangers of genetic tampering. But each of these movies only represents a single opinion in an ocean of the same. What about the advancements that can be made on the research itself? And isn't it fruitless to think about adult stem cells since they've already got a limited genetic variance vs embryonic cells which still can be harnessed (or harvested, depending on your view) to considerably greater ends? I think so. That's just an empty compromise made to appease those that do not understand the finer points of this research, aka you and me. Or maybe just you. That's right, you've been fooled! All it takes is a little research and common sense to figure it out. But be careful, withril, should you ever attain any political power or influence. The people who build this world and all its wonders are faced daily with an onslaught of morally concerned people who don't believe in change or sacrifice for the greater good (and this seems to be a continuing theme in many of my debates). What happens when that "moral concern" turns into an inaction?
You just have to look at the bigger picture. And btw, most conservatives are Republican, and the enemy of stem cell research (the real research, not the worthless compromise) is the conservative party.

An' another thing!
I'd just like to point out that in an earlier post on this thread you said: Oh and ps, surely you jest when you say you are waiting for the democrats (read Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Clinton, Harry Reid etc) to wave the wand of "logic". Next you'll tell us you're waiting for Rosie O'Donnell to be named Playmate of the Year amd win Ms Congeniality at the Miss America pagent. Or perhaps Alec Baldwin as Father of the Year???? You slay me.....

Well, let me state that it is odd that you would claim to know anything about logic when you would throw God in my face. Anyone who believes in god is technically not logical so welcome to the world of ill logic. I've slain you...

[wilthrill]

Where to begin....

Well, 1st anyone who "believes" that all of this universe is mere chaos and chance is the ONE who is "NOT LOGICAL" Secondly, using the term "playing god" is not "throwing god in your face". MOST of the medical ethicists I've heard use the term DON'T believe in god. It is NOT a religious term. It is a term they use to say man is overstepping his boundaries. Now, perhaps you disagree and think man is not overstepping his boundaries BUT to say that I'm throwing god in your face by using THEIR (the medical ethicist's) term is a specious argument.

Now a disclaimer: I am not a doctor and don't play one on TV. I am by no means an expert on this and welcome any on this board who are. Having said that let me reply to a statement you made, "

"And isn't it fruitless to think about adult stem cells since they've already got a limited genetic variance vs embryonic cells which still can be harnessed (or harvested, depending on your view) to considerably greater ends?" Clockwork


From everything I've heard, you've got it backwards Clockwork. Adult stem cells are CURRENTLY far more useful than embyonic. Pretty much EVERY treatment (bone marrow transplants for example) involving stem cells involves ADULT stem cells. I may be wrong but I haven't heard of EVEN ONE treatment that uses embryonic.

Also with repsect to the "thinking person" comment, I'd point out that it was YOU who started this thread in a purely POLITICALLY PARTISIAN fashion. George Bush and those repubs are trying to hold back progress. I was merely pointing out that this is NOT political. People on both sides of the aisle support or oppose this based on their ETHICS. If you choose to intepret that comment as saying you aren't thinking so be it, but I meant it as saying this is not repub vs dems.

I point to movies like The Island because it is a point of reference that more people will understand than some arcane book on medical ethics. Also it was a hell of a lot more entertaining. As I said, the movie may be wrong but the issue it raises IS cause for concern (and not just for bible-thumpin' republicans). Also your first statement is a good indication of EXACTLY what I'm worried about.

"Yes they are valid concerns, but let's not let a few abusers prevent us from mastering our race. One day there will be genetic and nucleic crime and punishment just like there is for everything else." Clockwork


"mastering our race"???? I'll skip the painfully obvious Hitler comparisions (master race, eugenics, etc) and just say it should be OBVIOUS the problems with this kind of thinking. For example "genectic crime and punishment" means exactly what??? DNA testing to solve a crime. No problem there. How about tampering with someone's DNA (say a serial rapist) to punish them for crimes committed? Get's a little shakier doesn't it? For example what happens when you punish (read mutate) an innocent person? And worse yet what about genetically tampering with someone "predisposed" to commit a crime BEFORE the crime in an attempt to prevent the crime (you know aka "Minority Report" that bad Tom Cruise movie)? Surely you can see the problems with this.

I'm not throwing "god" in your face. I'm throwing REALITY (man is a base creature and someone will do wrong whenever possible) in your face. Now many times we say "don't let the bad apple spoil the barrel". In other words, yes there are abusers (think about cars for example) but the benefit outweighs the abuse. In this case,the abusers may actually destroy what we know as human and so it is not KNEE JERK religiosity to DEMAND that we carefully consider the ramifications of what we are doing. Embryonic research IS going on TODAY. OUR gov't is spending MORE MONEY on this under BUSH than under all the other presidents put together!!! You guys like to PRETEND that Bush has killed all research or all federal funding when in fact he simply isn't willing to spend as much as you want.

And think about this, if embryonic is so promising then why aren't more private companies lining up to fund it??? There may be some valid reason I don'tknow about but it sure is strange because as I said earlier private companies are funding the shit out of ADULT stem cell research.

As for the Hillary/Rosie "logic" comment. Let me put it this way. What Bush is to the english language and oratory Hillary/Rosie are to logic.

Bush, "it is IMPARAMOUNT" that we secure the border."
Rosie, "in all of history fire has never melted steel. 911 was an inside job."

I guess Bush doesn't know that "imparamount" isn't an english word and I guess Rosie is simply unaware of HOW steel is manufactured!!!

[clockworkengine]

See, you worry too much. No one can answer all the questions you pose. No one can read into the future. You just have to trust that humans can overcome their boundaries. And only a fool would compare my statement to Hitler. Maybe if I made mention of a master race, that might be one thing. Maybe you took your english lessons from Bush? No, the process I referred to as mastering our race would be when we learn all there is to know about humanity. Nothing we could ever do would change humanity anymore than it changes by default. You like to twist my words to suit your meanings... so here are some words that cannot be twisted and the fact that I'm even telling you this proves that you are no longer capable of reasoning befitting your years of learned experience as a human. The human race, no, life itself is not stationary. It is constantly evolving. Up until now, nature alone has determined the course of evolution. We are taking our destiny into our own hands and I know you're scared, but it'll be alright. Evolution is not atrophy. It is progress.
Try to realize that this sort of thing is an ongoing debate. Before genetic technology, you know that people were raising your same playing god argument over things they didn't understand. How many more people do we have to burn at the stake before we realize that the world is round?

Oh yeah, and I almost forgot about the adult stem cells vs embryonic stem cells. I'm not sure exactly how to word this:
How can you possibly learn all the benefits from stem cells by studying the stem cells of an adult who no longer has the generative properties of an embryonic cell? Well, I guess you can see what's not there, but you cannot guess the composition of the missing properties.

[clone9]

if one redefines "GOD" as the force OR spirit OR scientific process that led to our existence then there can be no atheism bc "GOD" may be a big spiritual fairy in the sky or "GOD" may be evolution?????. Humans can NEVER know the answer to what "GOD" is so the point is we know we exist so whatever process/force/being led to our existence should be called "GOD". And more importantly since we can never VERIFY exactly what "GOD" is there is no point in fighting/killing others over that argument....And that is what I like to call my "Unifying theory of God" bc it does not contradict any of the worlds major religions