Another Bush Thread

[wilthrill]

There are ONLY two possible views of our existence. Either the universe came about RANDOMLY as an act of chance or something designed/created the universe.

Well while we are defining "god", when I say "god" I mean something more intelligent than I that put the universe into motion. If you like big bang theory my "god" is the prime mover, the spark that caused the explosion. For those who don't know (clockwork) I'm not religious at all. I am agnostic.I believe something designed the universe but I know pratically nothing about him/her and find all kinds of contradictions in EVERY organized religion I have come across.

With respect to "mastering our race", don't get your feelings hurt clockwork but anytime ANYONE says that I think of Hitler. You put the words or their variants "master" and "race" together and Hitler is the first thing I think of. And why might that be? Could it have anything to do with the MASSIVE potential for abuse inherit in any attempt to "master our race". I'm not saying that you are like Hilter. I am saying that if you don't see the potential for abuse, you are naive. Pretty much EVERY SINGLE TIME in world history someone has set out to "master our race" it has been abused!! In fact, can you give me ANY EXAMPLE where it hasn't?

Clockwork your argument seems to be, "there is great potential here. Mankind should do everything he can to become the master of his evolution. Perhaps there are concerns but that is just a bunch of religious nuts or "scared" people who like to throw god in my face. Therefore, the hell with their concerns. I should be able to order them to spend even MORE money than they are currently spending on an issue they have concerns with"

THAT seems to be what you are saying. Now if you disagree then clearly state your position and tell me where I'm wrong (I have to say that because even though it is obvious I don't want to be accused of "putting words in your mouth")

My position is that for once Bush is actually right. He has taken a middle of the road approach on embryonic. He hasn't banned it altogether and in fact is spending more FEDERAL dollars on it than any other president did. He has, if I'm correct, simply limited the federally funded research, to the existing embryonic stem cell lines. He has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to limit private research. But that is apparently not enough for some people. They apparently want UNLIMITED federal funding as well as the ability to just start harvesting embryos from any damn source they want all with federal money. I'd submit to you that NO DISEASE/research gets unlimited federal funding. Cancer kills a hell of a lot more people that MS and yet the gov't doesn't write a blank check for cancer research. In fact, the gov't spends very little on cancer research.

Clockwork, we've gone round and round, and I guess the crux of our argument comes down to what you said:

"No one can read into the future. You just have to trust that humans can overcome their boundaries. "

To which I reply, NO you don't have to TRUST humans and only a damn fool would. You have to put safeguards in place that render such "trust" unnecessary. For example in politics we don't just TRUST one man with absolute power. The same principle applies here.

[clockworkengine]

Safeguards, trust, money, master, race, Hitler... man, it's always the same. Worrying about the same old thing over and over but it is futile. Evolution will proceed in or outside of the public eye.
And about Bush, he takes the middle road on everything except the war or anything involving it. Why? Because he is Bush. That is what he does.
And you were pretty much right about my opinion. We don't have time to be fucking around with whiners when the time to advance is clearly at hand. We're not talking about some random event here. We're talking about unlocking the potential that could render disease and handicaps into a thing of the past.
I don't know about you, but I'm a mover and a shaker. I smile when I think that we might push back that ever-looming hand of death from our people. This is something that can bring us together like never before. And to those people (you) who would hold us back with petty "concerns", well I just hope that when the technology is mastered that you will prove yourself to be a hypocrite by indulging yourself in the benefits, just like every converted whiner before you. In the mean time, why don't you go play some records backwards and make acronyms that accuse innovative musicians of devil worship.
And I'm not saying "Let's all go crazy and start programming the future!". But instead of being afraid of change (which seems to be YOUR recurring theme), let's embrace these new tools and technologies before your old age starts blighting your typing fingers.

And one final note:
Despite our disagreements, it is clear that you have an intelligence that justifies your opinions. But this is a discussion forum. Everything is typed and archived. You could clearly read the mastering our race line. It states its intent without any Hitler-esque undertones. I only like arguing valid points, so let's not bring up any unneccesary bulshit just for the sake of scoring a few points.

[wilthrill]

Clockwork, "Safeguards, trust, money, master, race, Hitler... man, it's always the same. Worrying about the same old thing over and over but it is futile. Evolution will proceed in or outside of the public eye.


So am I to assume your position is that we shouldn't worry about the massive potential for abuse at all????? I mean hell man "evolution will proceed" anyway so screw it let's just have a free for all. If you are rich enough why not let you buy a clone which you can harvest for parts??? If enough people want to eliminate the "gay" gene (assuming one is ever found) then let's just exterminate all homosexual fetuses etc and in say fifty to a hundrerd years we won't have to worry about those non-existant gay people. And while we're at it lets go ahead and classify people based on their genetic makeup (i.e. if you don't have the "intelligence" gene you'll always be a "worker" and never a "professional"). Now, YOU, have not supported any of this directly. So don't try to say I'm putting words in your mouth. BUT you are INTENTIONALLY ignoring pretty much ALL of the downside to genetic research. True there is great potential and I would love to see cures (genetic or otherwise) for some of these horrible diseases. BUT in this world you don't get ANYTHING for FREE!!! There are downsides. There are unintended consequences. It is the height of folly to ignore them.

As for me being against change do you want to talk about attributing views to people that didn't take them? (I was very clear in saying that I wasn't comparing you to Hitler. I said that when I see the words master and race together I think of Hitler. If Jesus Christ appeared from on high and said "You must master your race", I'd think of Hitler. HE is the prime example of the downside/abuse of eugenics ). Please find me EVEN ONE QUOTE from this thread where I have taken a position against "change"? I have stated several times now that embryonic research IS being funded by our gov't RIGHT NOW. NOT ONCE have I opposed this fact. I oppose the idea that we must spend unlimited TAXPAYER money and REMOVE all safeguards from the research that is CURRENTLY being conducted. For you, apparently, THAT is a radical position born out of irrational fear and held only by republican religious nuts.

You know its sad that some people can't argue without trying to slime their opponents. I'm not religious. I'm not a die-hard republican. And history bears out the fact that my fear is NOT irrational because in every single instance where a few got unlimited power they abused it. Furthermore it is not "whining" to insist that safeguards be in place before you spend EVEN MORE of my tax dollars. It's also funny that you mention listening to records backwards to hear satanic messages because THAT statement PROVES that you don't know a damn thing about me. Twenty freaking years ago I was arguing against "satanic backwards messages" just so I could listen to my Styx and Led Zeppelin records because my parents believed that absurd shit!!

I've made my points without personally attacking you. It's too bad you can't do the same.

[clockworkengine]

Yes but I don't continuously ignore your statements and pick apart parts of your posts while ignoring others that contradict the very thing you are posting! Want proof? Read my last post and notice the line And I'm not saying "Let's all go crazy and start programming the future!" And then in your response you typed...
I mean hell man "evolution will proceed" anyway so screw it let's just have a free for all.

Freeze frame.

Just because I don't state how to do this over three paragraphs doesnt mean that the remark was invalid. You are so dead set on winning your unwinnable arguments that you twist your opponent's posts to suit your argument and then you attack their revised viewpoint. What the fuck is that? If you don't wanna be personally attacked, how about gaining some personal common sense and quit making BS posts.

[Mikael]

Clockwork-you're starting to get good at debating!

[Krafty Ken]

What is so bad about living under the presidency of George Bush? Is it the low taxes? The roaring economy? (to be fair, the federal reserve has more to do with that then Bush, but his tax cuts helped) Go back to living in your make believe world. Well Bush will do that, something may happen here. Liberalism has obviously infected your brain. Liberals deal in the abstract, but Bush is dealing with the now and concrete. And lets remember, the only President who served more then two terms Roosevelt, a DEMOCRAT, who said the country couldn't go through an election during war time. Imagine if Bush tried to pull that card, you liberals would scream for his head.

[clockworkengine]

This coming from someone whose avatar reads:
All You Left-Wing (political bias) Nut Jobs (name calling) Please (courteous manner) Sit Down And Shut Up (superiority complex)(Incorrect punctuation)
We're Busy Defending America From Evil.

Is that making a statement or do you just think the soldier is sexy?

[clone9]

what is more entertaining is the way the busheep always brand anyone who dares to disagree with Dubya Gump as a 'liberal' i.e. it's the classic "your either with us or agin us" mentality

I'd argue that the dummicraps, the busheep, and Al Qaeda, etc. are all basically the same.....groups of extremist's whose beliefs are based on concrete dogma.....
4 ex. Al Qaeda's dogma is extreme Islam....
busheep dogma is pseudo-Christianity...
dummicrap dogma is PC UTOPIANISM......

and anyone who dares apply logic and reason to ridicule that congrete dogma where they are blatantly wrong must be a bad guy....

4ex Mohammad was a pedophile so the Islamics will want to cut off your head if you read their own text to them about that...

Jesus said 'turn the other cheek' but busheep will say you are a pussy fag liberal if you don't want to kill the Iraqi's

political correctness says all humans are the same so how dare someone oppose allowing illegal aliens to come and go as they please...you must be a BIGOT!

all of these examples clearly expose flaws in each of these dogma's but members of each group will defend their position to the death despite all common sense evidence proving they are wrong....

[Krafty Ken]

Blah Blah Blah, all of which had nothing to do with my posting. Of course I'm biased, I'm a conservative. I'm not like a liberal who tries to masquerade as being objective. I call things as I see them, and as I see it, conservatism beats liberalism head to head every time it is tried. Liberalism only deals in the abstract but when it comes to practical application it falls flat on its face. Look no further then the city of san francisco. How well are liberal policies working out there?

[clockworkengine]

Well, I don't hate conservatism but... well maybe I do. But I don't automatically hate conservative people. What it all boils down to is that it's just a few collections of viewpoints with a name. Something I never hear anyone mention is how everyone interprets things differently. So the party system technically does not work. All it does really is create arguments, since the spectrum of conservative vs liberal policies is so vast in scope. It forces people to not even be able to compromise in most situations since one policy or belief will hinge on another, regardless of which side you choose. So for that reason, a liberal can never fully agree with a conservative in general because the nature of political partisanship prevents that.