muslims, conservatives and evangelicalas....oh my

junkernaut · 07-23-2007, 03:35 PM

conservatives, muslims and evangelicals....they all want the same thing, control of the world....they just have different methods......discuss

wilthrill · 07-23-2007, 05:41 PM

Well I guess your biases aren't showing at all junkernaut?

That list would have been FAR MORE ACCURATE had it been

muslims, liberals, and the global warming crowd

liberals do FAR MORE to seek control over our lives than conservatives have ever thought of. Who wants to decide which speech on talk radio is "fair"? Who wants socialized gov't controlled health care (hint, the three top democratic presidential candidates)? Who wants to teach 5 YEAR-OLDS "sex education"? Who wants to have gov't run pre-school? Who wants to make sure that any citizen who reports suspicious behavior to Homeland Security or Law Enforcement is subject to being SUED (I thought the feds told us to "be vigilant and report suspicious behavior")? Who wants to take MORE of your hard-earned money in the form of taxes? Who are the PC police? Who wants to limit the "carbon footprint" (read every day daily activity) of we plebes all the while they are creating a carbon footprint that would make Bigfoot look like a midget? I could go one literally for hours but you get the point.

But even if I were to ignore your biases (we all have them) your main assertion (they all want to control the world but are using different methods) is FAULTY. I have yet to see or hear ANY "evangelicals" who maintain that they have the right (make that commandment) to KILL those who don't convert. Sure, the evangelicals would probably be happy if everyone converted and they do spend a lot of time and money trying to convert people but they don't KILL those who don't convert. That "don't kill non-believers" part is a MAJOR difference that, although some refuse to see, DOES change things and makes the comparison invalid.

junkernaut · 07-23-2007, 06:05 PM

i have to disagree will.....i definitly have my biases...evangelicals especially....they scare the hell out of me.
although youre muslim extremists are definitly the worst of the bunch, no argument there. the evangelicals are definitly a close second.....you can call me a coock if you like, but they ignore basic science, and they do truly want to run this country like a theocracy......in a sense theyre actually trying to sneak in the back door by using the political path.
my basic view is that religion needs to stay out of politics and politics out of religion.....no matter what so many people are trying to make them out to be, the founding fathers DID NOT intend for this country to be a christian nation....thats something that me and you actually agree on....it was intended to be a country where religion didnt influence the govt....were heading down that proverbial slippery slope on this one.

so if evangelicals start running the place, were in for some serious issues. some good, albeit ficitional and contrived, examples can be found in the movies "V for vendetta" and even the newest harry potter movie.
and i subscribe to no political affiliations....i vote pagan....its the only way i can describe it.

wilthrill · 07-23-2007, 06:50 PM

the evangelicals are definitly a close second.....you can call me a coock if you like, but they ignore basic science, and they do truly want to run this country like a theocracy......in a sense theyre actually trying to sneak in the back door by using the political path.

I wouldn't call you a COOCK over that, junkernaut (perhaps you meant crock or Kook). I don't know you that well... LOL

I would make a distinction between imposing your morals on someone (which many of the evangelicals want to do and which I oppose) and imposing your religion on them (aka convert or die) but there's more red meat to be had in your statement:

"my basic view is that religion needs to stay out of politics and politics out of religion."

Well that would be nice but it is impossible. You might as well say, "I want to keep any uninformed opinions out of politics" because you cannot separate a person's belief system from THAT person. Most people have some sort of belief system and for the VAST majority of Americans that belief system falls within a recognized "religion". If we were to eliminate all "religious people" from office we'd be left with nihilists and atheists to run the country. I may not care for the evangelicals but I'd prefer them to someone who thinks the sum of life is pain and misery.

I don't think the founders intended for christianity to be the state religion. To imply that they were too ignorant to realize that the vast majority of people WERE christians and thus this country WAS FOUNDED on Judeo-christian values does them a disservice.

If the founders weren't convinced that the ten commandments were a central basis of our heritage and laws then why did they put them IN STONE on the highest court in the land?

Mikael · 07-23-2007, 08:08 PM

Not previously mentioned; atheists. Who is more scary than someone who does not believe in facing consequences of their mortal life?

junkernaut · 07-24-2007, 02:22 AM

i dont really have a problem with atheists....they never feel that compelled to shove their beliefs down your throat unprovoked....and at least they come about their beleifs on their own, not relying on some contradictory book written thousands of years ago

wilthrill · 07-24-2007, 05:47 PM

Hey junkernaut haven't you heard of Michael Newdow? Just in case you've forgotten, here's a link:

http://www.nndb.com/people/981/000049834/

Atheists don't push their beliefs on others, eh? You do realize the term "under god" wasn't promoting ANY particular religion don't you? You do realize that his daughter, for whom he allegedly fought this battle is NOT an atheist?

But I had never heard his allegation that his former wife "date raped" him and his daughter was the result. Yeah, that's a real LOVING THING to say of your TEN YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER?

junkernaut · 07-24-2007, 06:57 PM

i never said anything about loving will....and i stand by my statement. if you walk down a city street, you will be more likly to be harrassed by some born again evangelical street preacher than u will by an atheist......i cant tell you how many times ive been stopped on the street, minding my own business, and some rude person stops me and tries to save my pagan soul and hands me some tract from their church.....while the only time ive been confronted by an atheist was after some unprovoked conversation, and even then it would be a spirited debate, no damnation, no possible violence because i dont believe as they do.

plus if you ask your standard evangelical to explain how they came to believe what they do, the response is usually along the lines of "well the bible says....." and when you ask them if they form an opinion without using the bible, 99% of them cant do it....they have no clue how to defend themselves without it.

and before anyone gets on their soapbox and tells that im stereotyping or generalizing, I said the standard, or maybe i should say the average evangelical. theyres always exceptions to the rule

wilthrill · 07-24-2007, 07:27 PM

Point taken about everyday life walking down the street but you can't deny that there has been a concerted effort to remove all signs of religion from public sphere.

People have many different reasons for their beliefs. To pick out one of those reasons (religion) while ignoring the others seems to me to be arbitrary.

Basically, I try to look a WHAT a person DOES and most the time are not too concerned with why. Sometimes WHY might be relevant but most of the time what they DO is more important. For the most part I am not prepared to say, "oh you came to that belief because you are a mormon and therefore are somehow MORE DANGEREOUS than someone who came to the same belief because he was an atheist." Now if it were some nutcake religion (for example Christian Identity or Radical Islam, THEN I'd be concerned BUT if you've been to church for any long amount of time you discover that most "evangelicals" are the same people you see at the club on Saturday night and are about as likely to act on religious conviction as I am to take the gold in the 100 meters at the next Olympics.

junkernaut · 07-24-2007, 11:24 PM

ah yes, the good old fashioned sunday morning christian....as for the taking out the religion out of the public, thats a different story altogether. i totally believe in religious freedom. if a prayer group wants to gather in a public park or school gym and talk and pray and do their thing, as long as it doesnt bother anyone or infringe on someone elses rights, cool do what u want. but if a teacher in a PUBLIC school initiates a school prayer without regard to any student who might be confused or offended, then i have a problem. christian xmas decorations are cool with me, in fact im actually against taking them down because of a few politically correct haters find it offensive. in that particular case, you have the option of walking away. however if the religious right gets their way, and i truly believe this, we will eventually have a state religion. and this of course would be a horrible thing.

07-23-2007, 03:35 PM	#1 (permalink)
junkernaut Screamo for Emo Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 143 Rep Power: 46	muslims, conservatives and evangelicalas....oh my conservatives, muslims and evangelicals....they all want the same thing, control of the world....they just have different methods......discuss __________________ jesus had a great publicist

07-23-2007, 06:05 PM	#3 (permalink)
junkernaut Screamo for Emo Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 143 Rep Power: 46	i have to disagree will.....i definitly have my biases...evangelicals especially....they scare the hell out of me. although youre muslim extremists are definitly the worst of the bunch, no argument there. the evangelicals are definitly a close second.....you can call me a coock if you like, but they ignore basic science, and they do truly want to run this country like a theocracy......in a sense theyre actually trying to sneak in the back door by using the political path. my basic view is that religion needs to stay out of politics and politics out of religion.....no matter what so many people are trying to make them out to be, the founding fathers DID NOT intend for this country to be a christian nation....thats something that me and you actually agree on....it was intended to be a country where religion didnt influence the govt....were heading down that proverbial slippery slope on this one. so if evangelicals start running the place, were in for some serious issues. some good, albeit ficitional and contrived, examples can be found in the movies "V for vendetta" and even the newest harry potter movie. and i subscribe to no political affiliations....i vote pagan....its the only way i can describe it. __________________ jesus had a great publicist

07-23-2007, 08:08 PM	#5 (permalink)
Mikael Band Member Band Whore Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Down In a Hole Posts: 905 Rep Power: 45	Not previously mentioned; atheists. Who is more scary than someone who does not believe in facing consequences of their mortal life? __________________ I just saved a ton of money on car insurance by switching to no car insurance!!! www.myspace.com/13468360

07-24-2007, 02:22 AM	#6 (permalink)
junkernaut Screamo for Emo Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 143 Rep Power: 46	i dont really have a problem with atheists....they never feel that compelled to shove their beliefs down your throat unprovoked....and at least they come about their beleifs on their own, not relying on some contradictory book written thousands of years ago __________________ jesus had a great publicist

07-24-2007, 06:57 PM	#8 (permalink)
junkernaut Screamo for Emo Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 143 Rep Power: 46	i never said anything about loving will....and i stand by my statement. if you walk down a city street, you will be more likly to be harrassed by some born again evangelical street preacher than u will by an atheist......i cant tell you how many times ive been stopped on the street, minding my own business, and some rude person stops me and tries to save my pagan soul and hands me some tract from their church.....while the only time ive been confronted by an atheist was after some unprovoked conversation, and even then it would be a spirited debate, no damnation, no possible violence because i dont believe as they do. plus if you ask your standard evangelical to explain how they came to believe what they do, the response is usually along the lines of "well the bible says....." and when you ask them if they form an opinion without using the bible, 99% of them cant do it....they have no clue how to defend themselves without it. and before anyone gets on their soapbox and tells that im stereotyping or generalizing, I said the standard, or maybe i should say the average evangelical. theyres always exceptions to the rule __________________ jesus had a great publicist

07-23-2007, 05:41 PM	#2 (permalink)
wilthrill Band Whore Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 825 Rep Power: 46	Well I guess your biases aren't showing at all junkernaut? That list would have been FAR MORE ACCURATE had it been muslims, liberals, and the global warming crowd liberals do FAR MORE to seek control over our lives than conservatives have ever thought of. Who wants to decide which speech on talk radio is "fair"? Who wants socialized gov't controlled health care (hint, the three top democratic presidential candidates)? Who wants to teach 5 YEAR-OLDS "sex education"? Who wants to have gov't run pre-school? Who wants to make sure that any citizen who reports suspicious behavior to Homeland Security or Law Enforcement is subject to being SUED (I thought the feds told us to "be vigilant and report suspicious behavior")? Who wants to take MORE of your hard-earned money in the form of taxes? Who are the PC police? Who wants to limit the "carbon footprint" (read every day daily activity) of we plebes all the while they are creating a carbon footprint that would make Bigfoot look like a midget? I could go one literally for hours but you get the point. But even if I were to ignore your biases (we all have them) your main assertion (they all want to control the world but are using different methods) is FAULTY. I have yet to see or hear ANY "evangelicals" who maintain that they have the right (make that commandment) to KILL those who don't convert. Sure, the evangelicals would probably be happy if everyone converted and they do spend a lot of time and money trying to convert people but they don't KILL those who don't convert. That "don't kill non-believers" part is a MAJOR difference that, although some refuse to see, DOES change things and makes the comparison invalid.

07-23-2007, 06:50 PM	#4 (permalink)
wilthrill Band Whore Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 825 Rep Power: 46	the evangelicals are definitly a close second.....you can call me a coock if you like, but they ignore basic science, and they do truly want to run this country like a theocracy......in a sense theyre actually trying to sneak in the back door by using the political path. I wouldn't call you a COOCK over that, junkernaut (perhaps you meant crock or Kook). I don't know you that well... LOL I would make a distinction between imposing your morals on someone (which many of the evangelicals want to do and which I oppose) and imposing your religion on them (aka convert or die) but there's more red meat to be had in your statement: "my basic view is that religion needs to stay out of politics and politics out of religion." Well that would be nice but it is impossible. You might as well say, "I want to keep any uninformed opinions out of politics" because you cannot separate a person's belief system from THAT person. Most people have some sort of belief system and for the VAST majority of Americans that belief system falls within a recognized "religion". If we were to eliminate all "religious people" from office we'd be left with nihilists and atheists to run the country. I may not care for the evangelicals but I'd prefer them to someone who thinks the sum of life is pain and misery. I don't think the founders intended for christianity to be the state religion. To imply that they were too ignorant to realize that the vast majority of people WERE christians and thus this country WAS FOUNDED on Judeo-christian values does them a disservice. If the founders weren't convinced that the ten commandments were a central basis of our heritage and laws then why did they put them IN STONE on the highest court in the land?

07-24-2007, 05:47 PM	#7 (permalink)
wilthrill Band Whore Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 825 Rep Power: 46	Hey junkernaut haven't you heard of Michael Newdow? Just in case you've forgotten, here's a link: http://www.nndb.com/people/981/000049834/ Atheists don't push their beliefs on others, eh? You do realize the term "under god" wasn't promoting ANY particular religion don't you? You do realize that his daughter, for whom he allegedly fought this battle is NOT an atheist? But I had never heard his allegation that his former wife "date raped" him and his daughter was the result. Yeah, that's a real LOVING THING to say of your TEN YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER?

07-24-2007, 07:27 PM	#9 (permalink)
wilthrill Band Whore Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 825 Rep Power: 46	Point taken about everyday life walking down the street but you can't deny that there has been a concerted effort to remove all signs of religion from public sphere. People have many different reasons for their beliefs. To pick out one of those reasons (religion) while ignoring the others seems to me to be arbitrary. Basically, I try to look a WHAT a person DOES and most the time are not too concerned with why. Sometimes WHY might be relevant but most of the time what they DO is more important. For the most part I am not prepared to say, "oh you came to that belief because you are a mormon and therefore are somehow MORE DANGEREOUS than someone who came to the same belief because he was an atheist." Now if it were some nutcake religion (for example Christian Identity or Radical Islam, THEN I'd be concerned BUT if you've been to church for any long amount of time you discover that most "evangelicals" are the same people you see at the club on Saturday night and are about as likely to act on religious conviction as I am to take the gold in the 100 meters at the next Olympics.

07-24-2007, 11:24 PM	#10 (permalink)
junkernaut Screamo for Emo Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 143 Rep Power: 46	ah yes, the good old fashioned sunday morning christian....as for the taking out the religion out of the public, thats a different story altogether. i totally believe in religious freedom. if a prayer group wants to gather in a public park or school gym and talk and pray and do their thing, as long as it doesnt bother anyone or infringe on someone elses rights, cool do what u want. but if a teacher in a PUBLIC school initiates a school prayer without regard to any student who might be confused or offended, then i have a problem. christian xmas decorations are cool with me, in fact im actually against taking them down because of a few politically correct haters find it offensive. in that particular case, you have the option of walking away. however if the religious right gets their way, and i truly believe this, we will eventually have a state religion. and this of course would be a horrible thing. __________________ jesus had a great publicist