wilthrill

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24176725/

Ok, so the question is was this the Pope or was it the Beatles at Shea stadium?

Caveat: This is Wilthrill trying to be as non-offensive as possible.

I can understand someone liking a band so much that they get all excited and start crying/screaming etc like fans did when the Beatles played Shea stadium. I, myself, have never been excited to tears over a band but I could see how others could be.

What I can't understand is a CHRISTIAN who reads the ten commandments especially the one about "thou shalt have no idols or graven images" and then turns around and shits themselves because the pope is in town. Maybe I don't understand but it sure looks like idolatry to me. I mean when you have women weeping in his presence and one even saying that solely because of his visit Washington DC "feels different today" that looks like idolatry. I'll also bet that to the mugging victim on K street DC felt eerily the same yesterday. I KNOW that for those of us taxpayers who are mugged by our Congress on a daily basis, DC felt eerily the same yesterday.

So two questions:

1.What has this guy done to deserve such worship (at least with John Paul II one could argue that he was heroic in his youth. This guy was a member of the Hitler Youth for crying out loud!)?

2. Doesn't the second commandment forbid the worship of anyone other than god (at least the Beatle's fans could argue they weren't religious)?

ambergirl

Yep its idolatry. But they like to stay blind to the wrong they do.

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PITBOSS

This is something I never really understood. The Pope, all the Saints. Then again I'm not Catholic.

Penelope

I heard Nancy Pelosi kissed his ring. Just think how many diseases could be spread that way. Ick.

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ssspert

He has an assistant with alcohol on rag, and wipes it off.
Catholics have some strange things they do.
I'll drink to that.
Better than being baptist and not recognizing your preacher in liquor store on saturday afternoon.

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ambergirl

hahahaha Bert!!!

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Lerxstcat

You know if you didn't join the Hitler Youth back then they'd ship your family off to Auschwitz, right? It was mandatory for all German children, and he got out of it as soon as he could.

But the truth is much less sensational, so isn't often repeated.

Reverence for the Pope is not idolatry. Idolatry is worshiping false gods. The Pope is the representative of God on earth. I agree that as a Catholic I don't agree with some of the dogma attached to the Pope, but he is not worshipped, only revered.

And Saints are also not worshipped or prayed to as you pray to god. They are considered souls who have passed on and are in communion with God, so Catholics ask them to intercede with God. It's asking someone who knows the boss to put in a good word for you.

This is also especially true of Mary. Mary as the mother of Jesus is revered by Catholics, but think about it: You've fucked up and you've got nothing coming, so you ask Mary to intercede for you. Now Jesus might hardass you, but here's his mother asking him to forgive you instead.

It makes sense when you look at it this way, though my priest might say I said it a bit irreverently. But that's how I see the saints and Mary from my Catholic background.

But how about all these Protestant cults in the past 30 years whose leaders have claimed to be the second coming of Jesus? Jim Jones and David Koresh are 2 examples....

wilthrill

The "truth" is that he is not heroic like John Paul was. I can understand joining the Hitler Youth at the point of a gun. That is unfortunate and perhaps you are not a bad guy because you were forced to do it. BUT YOU ARE NOT A HERO EITHER!!!!

Reverence???? I understand "you say tomato I say toMATo" but don't you think you're stretching the meaning of the word "reverence" a bit? I mean I've always thought of reverence as meaning RESPECT. People crying all over themselves, fainting etc goes WAY BEYOND "reverence".

As for those protestant cults, their "leaders" weren't visiting Washington DC last week and having literally MILLIONS of people nationwide shitting themselves over it. OF COURSE they (Jim Jones, David Koresh etc) were bad.

I, sure as hell, am not a spokesman for ANY religion. So when I ask a question of catholicism, I am not by implication glorifying or defending protestantism. I do find it odd that when talking about the Pope you'd bring up CULT leaders like Jones and Koresh. I mean if they or one of their nutjobs does something to get back in the news, we can talk about them. But I wasn't comparing the Pope to them although now that you mention it one could compare the attitude of their devotees as displayed in DC last week.

I'm sure that'll ruffle some feathers but I am just asking what I see to be the central contradiction of catholicism.

I could ask similar hard questions of other religions.

Christianity - how is it freewill when your god has a gun to my head.

Islam - how is it a religion of peace when you want to KILL PEOPLE who don't believe as you do.

Budhism - how in the hell do you get into that lotus position. No seriously, why be moral when you can reincarnate forever and thus fix any fuckups you have along the way.

Wilthrill is a cynical person when it comes to religion. I picked the catholics last week because they were in the news. They certainly do not have a monopoly on Wilthrill's cynicism.

Razz

As far as religion itself goes, I claimed athiest for the longest time because I couldn't make sense of any of it. Finally, I follow Jenny-ism. Do what's right and everything will be fine.

Thanks for explaining the 'point' of saints and the pope, Lerxstcrat. I thought they were actually worshiped. That actually makes sense.

Lerxstcat

I agree that John Paul II was heroic in a way that Benedict XVI was not. Their lives were pretty different since one's country was divided up by 2 wolves while the other's country was one of the wolves. Benedict was chosen as an interim Pope to basically continue JPII's policies so the church could put off a big decision - pressure to choose an African or Latin-American Pope. 75% of all Catholics are in Latin America, after all.

Reverence is more than simple respect, yet less than worship. I respect you, Wilthrill, but don't revere you. I revered JPII more than I do Pope Benedict because of his extraordinary life. But at the same time I do revere Pope Benedict because he has dedicated his life to God and in doing that has come to head the church at this point in time.

I used Jones and Koresh as extreme examples, but what they have in common with other Protestant sects is that the pastor of the local church calls the shots for his church, rather than bing a cog in a large administrative machine. Catholocism is the cult of the monolith, Protestantism is the cult of personality of the pastor at the local level. There may be larger organizations of Baptists, Methodists, etc... but as I understand it they're not really under one roof. Wheras the Pope can reach out to any Catholic parish on Earth and exert his will. Not that he usually does with a billion people under the umbrella.

American Catholics have been through a rough several years. A Papal visit improves morale. Some people are extremely affected by his prescene and if it enriches their lives, that's great. why that would irritate you, I don't really understand.