Razz

As far as not letting the Bible in, that's pretty dumb. Being able to live without it or not for two weeks isn't the issue. Just not being allowed to have something like that at all.

Lerxstcat

True, but China has always tried to limit Western influence so it shouldn't surprise anyone that they're doing this. even long before the communists, China tried very hard to keep Western thinking out. The fact that they have embraced capitalism to an extent shouldn't make us think the whole culture has really changed.

Also, in the 1800s the Chinese tried to keep opium out when the British wanted to import it from India to China. The British basically punked the Chinese government and did it anyway, leading to an epidemic of opium addicts in China.

So they actually have good reason for wanting to keep Western habits out. Sometimes you have to see the other guy's side and the Chinese take the long view. To them, Christianity could hurt Chinese culture as much as a wave of opium addiction did in the 1800s.

I may be a Christian, but I can see why they'd have anxiety knowing the history of Western influence in China hasn't been the best thing for them in every case.

Mikael

China's occupation of Tibet really bothers me. They are also extremely wasteful and they like to put lead in our kids' toys.
I really think China's goal is to undermine the U.S. any way it can short of open aggression.

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Lerxstcat

Tibet has been a part of the Chinese Empire since the time of Kublai Khan, except for about 50 years when the British took it away from for reasons of their own, i.e., a buffer state for India.

You may not know that the Dalai Lama, who we consider the rightful ruler of Tibet, was first installed in that power by a Chinese emperor to rule Tibet as a Chinese province.

Us bitching to them about Tibet they take about the way we'd take it if they bitched about us being in Alaska - except that they've owned Tibet about 600 years longer than we've owned Alaska.

China wants to supplant us as a world power, but believe me, they want us to be wealthy and powerful so we can continue to be their customers. The lead in the toys and food contamination issues are bad, but they're likely using manufacturing methods and materials that WE used 40-50 years ago. We had lead paint and lead in our products too, recall.

I'm not saying we don't have to be wary of China; we surely do. But we're better off being cautious friends than open enemies. We don't want a world war with China when they have enough military and reesrves to put 100 million ground troops into the field. How do we fight those numbers?

The only way would be nukes - and you can bet they'd launch everything they've got on our mainland as soon as we nuked their troops on the ground in Asia. Good chance the Russians would launch on us as well, simply because they would expect us to retaliate against China and nukes in China mean major fallout in Russia.

Do we want to be the cause of that just because we think of ourselves as the badasses of the world? china has been around for 5,000 years in some form. We're 232 years old as a nation.

Maybe they get the long view better than we do, technology notwithstanding. We need to be careful with China and war with that country would be our worst nightmare.

I would personally rather the US pull out of Eurasia and reinforce the Monroe Doctrine in the Western Hemisphere. Let Russia, China and the EU fight over Mideast oil while we keep the Eurasian powers out of our backyard.

Mikael

Nice post. I didn't know Tibet was a Chinese province previously.

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ssspert

I think its a moot subject because in this day and time there is such a plethora of war and hatred, this may be the only thing that will bring the world together in a peaceful competition.

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Lerxstcat

That's my point. We can tell the chinese we don't like their human rights record, that's one thing.

When you turn your back on them in the international Olympic Games, you make China lose a LOT of face. They're not gonna be embarrassed and fall in line. They're gonna get PISSED and do something to fuck us up, to warn us not to trifle with them.

Of course, then neither we nor they will back down - where would it end? Are you willing to be conscripted into a ground war in Central Asia to let the Chinese know that you really disapprove of how they treat political prisoners? Because that could be the result of spitting in the face of the Chinese government.

If you want to fight a war with China, better bring back the draft now and draft everyone between 18 and 42 so we can only be outnumbered 10-1 instead of 100-1 on the battlefield.

wilthrill

Well then let's just change the WHOLE message of the Olympics from one of international cooperation to one of subservience to China.

If the Chinese don't want freedom (and the VAST MAJORITY of them outside of the leadership do) then fine. But you don't get to HOST the Olympic games and FOIST your totalitarian ways on the REST of the world that wants to participate in the Olympics. Even the NAZIS and the COMMUNISTS in the Soviet Union understood this.

As for war with China. They do have an advantage in sheer numbers. We HAVE HAD an advantage in technology. Our so-called leaders are selling the Chicoms (the term refers to the leadership of China not the rank and file citizens) our tech as fast as they can so that advantage is disappearing and at the current level of China's military growth will be GONE FOREVER in a relatively short time.

So Lerxt are you suggesting that we wait until we have NO LEVERAGE, NO ADVANTAGE whatsoever and then try to "talk" the Chicoms out of being such SAVAGES?

Can you find me EVEN one example from history where APPEASEMENT has worked?

Finally, I am not so worried about "pissing off" the Chinese. We wouldn't fight a ground war against 1 billion people. It would be nuclear and basically we have the SAME deterrence (MAD) that held the Soviet Union in check for 50 years. In other words the Chicoms just like any other normal humans don't want to reach 10,000 degrees in less than one second.

Now ten to twenty years from now when they have their fleets of ICBM's (thank you Bill Clinton) then that MAD comes back to bite us on the ass but right now they could launch a few nukes and a few might even reach Los Angelos but the US would survive. I am not advocating a nuclear attack on China but I am pointing out that right now we DO have that ability and therefore RIGHT NOW is when we need to be trying to change China. What we don't need is to be so afraid that they might get angry that we wait twenty years when we WON'T have that ability!!!!

Lerxstcat

Whether it's now or 20 years from now, our only true deterrent against China is MAD. You can say we'd survive a nuclear war with them now - but what if that exchange incites Russia to attack us at the same time? THEY still have PLENTY of ICBMs, our nuking china would directly impact Russia in terms of massive fallout - and they might figure they'd never have a better chance to eliminate us.

China really won't be harmed if we boycott the Olympics - whoever shows up and competes will just gain an advantage by the abscence of the boycotting countries' athletes. So, we screw our own Olympic athletes and that's it.

So thinking that we have any ;leverage NOW is an illusion. But, the chinese have long memories. They remember European powers telling them what to do in their own country in the 1800s. They remember European intervention destroying the Chinese Empire that had lasted for thousands of years and fragmenting their country.

The Chinese are not aggressing new territories like Nazi Germany or Iraq did. They're applying the same laws that exist in their country to foreigners coming into their country. Just as we would do. We may not like it, but it's internal to their country. We don't like the Saudis making their women wear burkhas, but female American military personnel wear burkhas in public in Saudi Arabia. We don't demand to drink alcohol in Saudi because it's our custom in the US.

Boycott if you want to screw US athletes, and piss the Chinese off in such a way that they'll remember 20 years from now, and wait til they can put the screws to us. It's not appeasement to recognize a country's right to enforce its laws within its own borders.

Hey dude, you know in Canada you can have sex with a 14-year-old girl. so Canadians should be able to come here and have sex with 14-year-olds because they can do it in Canada? What you're demanding is basically the same thing - for them to set their laws aside because you disagree. It's a little different when the subject is sex, but the principle is exactly the same - respecting a country's laws within its borders, and not trying to foist your ways upon their country.

Lerxstcat

Oh, instances of appeasement that worked:

The Christian Kingdoms of Spain paid tribute to Moorish conquerors for 800 years in order to exist while they gradually accomplished the reconquest and unification of Spain.

The Grand Duchy of Muscovy paid tribute to the Mongol hordes in order to not be wiped out of existence. By doing so it survived the Mongol heyday, eventually became Russia and expanded to cover the eitire top half of the Asian continent. Biding their time was a good idea.

The Christian kingdoms of Eastern Europe paid tribute to the Ottoman Empire to forestall it invading and conquering their countries (Austria, Hungary, Moravia). By appeasing the Ottomans they waited them out until their power faded and ultimately pushed the Ottomans back out of Greece and the Balkans.

In all those cases, appeasing a foe that they were in no position to beat allowed them to survive until conditions became more favorable.