Socialized Medicine: Good/Bad???

wilthrill · 10-10-2007, 05:31 PM

Since the democratic nominee WILL try to foist socialized medicine on this country and this board does contain people in the medical field I thought it would be a good time to debate it.

I'll state my position and then you can respond.

Socialized medicine is a DISASTER waiting to happen.

In EVERY country where it has been tried it has led to rationing and long waiting lines for CRITICAL services.
This is easily understood because the same government that pays $900 for hammers and oversees other massively efficient programs like Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security etc would be running health care. The same gov't which after Katrina was handing out $2,000 credit cards (many of which were used in STRIP CLUBS) would be in charge of paying the bills.

That same gov't would really be in our lives trying to control our every habit. You think I'm kidding??? Already in Canada whether one smokes or not is one of the main criteria for deciding whether one gets certain medical treatments. The Canucks figure why should they pay for that heart surgery when Joe Camel is just going to continue smoking and kill himself within the decade. AND IF I WERE BEING ASKED TO PAY FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S HEALTH CARE I'D PROBABLY DO THE SAME THING!!!!!
But why stop there? Why should gov't have to pay to treat fat people (roughly half the American population)? How about those with high cholesterol? How about alcoholics or even social drinkers? What if you injure yourself doing something foolish like Jet Skiing, skydiving, base jumping?

Not only that but POLITICS would be injected (pun intended) into medical decisions even more if gov't were paying for health care. For example, did you know that in Canada a HEROIN addict gets free needles but a DIABETES patient does not!!!!!!!

http://www.ottawainnercityministries...Reduction1.htm

Now our system has it's problems but in my opinion is FAR SUPERIOR to ANY socialized system on Earth if for no other reason than the fact that if you don't like what Dr A is telling you or if you really want that risky treatment you can pay for another Dr or the treatment. Canadians have to come to the US!!!!!

10-11-2007, 05:32 AM

No such thing as a free ride.
If it sounds too good to be true it probably is.
Don't let the democrooks fool ya.
The are some in this country that already get a free ride why make it easier for the rest?
Indigent medical care in this country is astonishing.
Get a job with medical/dental benefits.
Stop making the hardworking taxpayers pay for your sorry ass.

It works well in sweden.
The teachers, firemen and police (civil servants) are paid more.
The medical care is good, but you take what treatment you get.
You can not choose your doctor, hospital...etc.

Is it better?
I don't think it is.

alex 101 · 10-11-2007, 08:56 AM

one word, bad.

PITBOSS · 10-11-2007, 01:29 PM

Quote:

It works well in sweden.
The teachers, firemen and police (civil servants) are paid more.
The medical care is good, but you take what treatment you get.
You can not choose your doctor, hospital...etc.

I have a good friend from Norway who basically says that socialized healthcare is the reason he immigrated here.

He basically said that this raises taxes through the roof, getting a quarter of your check... housing, vehicles taxed through the roof etc. It doesn't sound like fun!

The working class of America are already supporting welfare families, overpaid govt, Israel, a war in Iraq. gotta draw the line somewhere.

Lerxstcat · 10-11-2007, 06:27 PM

Wait until your company changes insurance companies in the middle of your cancer treatment, you're dropped and the new company refuses to cover your preexisting condition.

Then see if you think our system is the best, as you have to sell your house and pay cash for the treatments.

Or your company changes insurance 2 months before your baby is due, and you have to pay cash for THAT.

It's not just the uninsured, it's the underinsured and people who get caught in the cracks as described above. Easy to say fuck 'em until it happens to you, then you get the picture.

wilthrill · 10-11-2007, 07:13 PM

Lerxt it is not a choice between saying our system is perfect or going Michael Moore and saying we have to have socialized medicine.

There is a THIRD choice and that is to fix our system without turning it over to the gov't.

Now I'll be the first to admit that I don't know exactly HOW to do that but I DO KNOW that turning it all over to Big Daddy Gov't isn't the solution.

For every story like your's I could recite some story of some poor Canadian, Brit, Frenchie, Norwegian etc that LITERALLY DIED (try recovering from that) waiting for treatment. You may have to sell your house, and that is tragic, but at least you had the opportunity to sell your house and weren't ordered to "wait and die"!!!

I really don't mean to make light of your situation (I myself have over twenty thousand in medical bills from when my daughter broke her leg on christmas and my 14 year old son's visits to the hospital. I didn't have insurance and just was able to obtain it through my job.)

BUT I don't see turning over a MASSIVE amount of control of our RIGHT TO LIVE (for god's sake) as well as 1/7th of the US economy to the same gov't that can't administer Social Security as a good thing.

Lerxstcat · 10-12-2007, 02:14 AM

I want us to come up with something better than the current system that avoids the pitfalls of other socialized medicine systems.

The problem with trying to fix it WITHOUT government input is that the doctors, hospitals, pharmaceuticals companies and testing companies (labs, MRI, etc...) like it just fine as it is. They make bank with little to no control.

I can't see the system reforming itself from within. Medical insurance is a for-profit industry that makes money by dropping people who are sick and denying procedures that save lives.

The government does tend to fuck things up, but who else will tell those riding the gravy train that they need to cut back on the gravy?

PITBOSS · 10-12-2007, 11:43 AM

If any of you watched the 20/20 episode on this, theres a couple workable alternatives out there. after seeing that, i was even more turned off to socialized healthcare.

wilthrill · 10-13-2007, 08:32 AM

Lerxt: "Medical insurance is a for-profit industry that makes money by dropping people who are sick and denying procedures that save lives."

Actually Lerxt, you just described socialized medicine!!! They aren't for profit but A CENTRAL characteristic of EVERY SOCIALIZED SYSTEM ON EARTH is rationing. EVERY SINGLE TIME SOCIALISM HAS BEEN TRIED (in economics, gov't and health care) it has led to RATIONING! Do you remember the old Soviet Union? Do you remember the lines for BREAD for god's sake?

We need MORE competition in health care not less. (a single payer system ELIMINATES ALL competition). We need consumers who are tied to the COST of their medical care because that will encourage them to shop around, take better care of themselves etc. When Big Daddy Gov't PAYS for everything the consumer doesn't feel it and therefore doesn't CARE and thus costs go even HIGHER. A good example is paycheck withholding in income taxes. If every taxpayer had to sit down an write a check to Uncle Sam they'd be stunned (and then angry) at just HOW MUCH they pay in taxes. Instead it gets withheld and most people HAVE NO IDEA what they personally pay in taxes.

Take cars for example. For most of us they are a NEED like health care except we NEED them EVERY DAY.

If the US gov't said, "we will pay for ANY work that has to be done on your car" would you be more or less likely to take your car to the mechanic?

For the record, I drive a battered two color 1997 Nissan 200SX. If the gov't would pay for EVERYTHING, that car would have a two-tone fade black to silver metal flake paint job with maybe some stars painted into the black. It would have 4 20-inch $3000/rim. It would have the best after market carberator that money could buy. It would have a super nice car audio SYSTEM that would be so loud I'd have to have a remote control to turn it up because you wouldn't be able to sit in the car at full volume. It would have the latest Tom Tom GPS although I'd get some porn starlet to do the voiceovers so I could "cop a nut" on my way. It would have fully tinted windows, leather or fur-lined seats. I mean that fucking car would look like something off of "Pimp my Ride" or "Overhauling". It would be sweet!!!

Now do I really NEED all of that?

Well WHEN I HAVE TO PAY FOR IT the answer is no.

But hell if you are going to pick up the tab then maybe I do.

We have the same problem in health care. I'm sure some of the doctors on this site can tell stories about all of the UNNECESSARY treatment requested by patients or about all of the hypochondriacs that visit the doctor every time they get a hangnail. And this is in a system that still requires some to actually pay for their care. What do you think will happen when people get the notion that health care is free????

I'm telling you man, socialized medicine is not the way to go. You don't fix someone with sore tonsils by shooting him in the head!!!!!

The Good Reverend, MATCHEW · 10-15-2007, 12:23 PM

B-A-D

10-10-2007, 05:31 PM	#1 (permalink)
wilthrill Band Whore Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 823 Rep Power: 46	Socialized Medicine: Good/Bad??? Since the democratic nominee WILL try to foist socialized medicine on this country and this board does contain people in the medical field I thought it would be a good time to debate it. I'll state my position and then you can respond. Socialized medicine is a DISASTER waiting to happen. In EVERY country where it has been tried it has led to rationing and long waiting lines for CRITICAL services. This is easily understood because the same government that pays $900 for hammers and oversees other massively efficient programs like Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security etc would be running health care. The same gov't which after Katrina was handing out $2,000 credit cards (many of which were used in STRIP CLUBS) would be in charge of paying the bills. That same gov't would really be in our lives trying to control our every habit. You think I'm kidding??? Already in Canada whether one smokes or not is one of the main criteria for deciding whether one gets certain medical treatments. The Canucks figure why should they pay for that heart surgery when Joe Camel is just going to continue smoking and kill himself within the decade. AND IF I WERE BEING ASKED TO PAY FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S HEALTH CARE I'D PROBABLY DO THE SAME THING!!!!! But why stop there? Why should gov't have to pay to treat fat people (roughly half the American population)? How about those with high cholesterol? How about alcoholics or even social drinkers? What if you injure yourself doing something foolish like Jet Skiing, skydiving, base jumping? Not only that but POLITICS would be injected (pun intended) into medical decisions even more if gov't were paying for health care. For example, did you know that in Canada a HEROIN addict gets free needles but a DIABETES patient does not!!!!!!! http://www.ottawainnercityministries...Reduction1.htm Now our system has it's problems but in my opinion is FAR SUPERIOR to ANY socialized system on Earth if for no other reason than the fact that if you don't like what Dr A is telling you or if you really want that risky treatment you can pay for another Dr or the treatment. Canadians have to come to the US!!!!! Last edited by wilthrill; 10-10-2007 at 05:34 PM.

10-11-2007, 05:32 AM	#2 (permalink)
too far gone Guest Posts: n/a	No such thing as a free ride. If it sounds too good to be true it probably is. Don't let the democrooks fool ya. The are some in this country that already get a free ride why make it easier for the rest? Indigent medical care in this country is astonishing. Get a job with medical/dental benefits. Stop making the hardworking taxpayers pay for your sorry ass. It works well in sweden. The teachers, firemen and police (civil servants) are paid more. The medical care is good, but you take what treatment you get. You can not choose your doctor, hospital...etc. Is it better? I don't think it is. Last edited by too far gone; 10-11-2007 at 05:34 AM.

10-11-2007, 08:56 AM	#3 (permalink)
alex 101 Band Member Screamo for Emo Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: ocean springs, ms. Age: 31 Posts: 220 Rep Power: 46	one word, bad. __________________ www.consumptionmusic.com www.purevolume.com/consumption www.myspace.com/consumption www.musicfreedom.com/consumption www.isound.com/consumption

10-11-2007, 06:27 PM	#5 (permalink)
Lerxstcat Band Whore Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 531 Rep Power: 24	Wait until your company changes insurance companies in the middle of your cancer treatment, you're dropped and the new company refuses to cover your preexisting condition. Then see if you think our system is the best, as you have to sell your house and pay cash for the treatments. Or your company changes insurance 2 months before your baby is due, and you have to pay cash for THAT. It's not just the uninsured, it's the underinsured and people who get caught in the cracks as described above. Easy to say fuck 'em until it happens to you, then you get the picture. Last edited by Lerxstcat; 10-11-2007 at 06:29 PM.

10-15-2007, 12:23 PM	#10 (permalink)
The Good Reverend, MATCHEW Agent Jones, at your service. GCB Senior Citizen Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 2,406 Rep Power: 34	B-A-D __________________ www.Ko-Lija.com www.MySpace.com/KoLija www.MySpace.com/OSMUSICFEST

10-11-2007, 07:13 PM	#6 (permalink)
wilthrill Band Whore Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 823 Rep Power: 46	Lerxt it is not a choice between saying our system is perfect or going Michael Moore and saying we have to have socialized medicine. There is a THIRD choice and that is to fix our system without turning it over to the gov't. Now I'll be the first to admit that I don't know exactly HOW to do that but I DO KNOW that turning it all over to Big Daddy Gov't isn't the solution. For every story like your's I could recite some story of some poor Canadian, Brit, Frenchie, Norwegian etc that LITERALLY DIED (try recovering from that) waiting for treatment. You may have to sell your house, and that is tragic, but at least you had the opportunity to sell your house and weren't ordered to "wait and die"!!! I really don't mean to make light of your situation (I myself have over twenty thousand in medical bills from when my daughter broke her leg on christmas and my 14 year old son's visits to the hospital. I didn't have insurance and just was able to obtain it through my job.) BUT I don't see turning over a MASSIVE amount of control of our RIGHT TO LIVE (for god's sake) as well as 1/7th of the US economy to the same gov't that can't administer Social Security as a good thing.

10-12-2007, 02:14 AM	#7 (permalink)
Lerxstcat Band Whore Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 531 Rep Power: 24	I want us to come up with something better than the current system that avoids the pitfalls of other socialized medicine systems. The problem with trying to fix it WITHOUT government input is that the doctors, hospitals, pharmaceuticals companies and testing companies (labs, MRI, etc...) like it just fine as it is. They make bank with little to no control. I can't see the system reforming itself from within. Medical insurance is a for-profit industry that makes money by dropping people who are sick and denying procedures that save lives. The government does tend to fuck things up, but who else will tell those riding the gravy train that they need to cut back on the gravy?

10-12-2007, 11:43 AM	#8 (permalink)
PITBOSS Band Whore Join Date: May 2005 Location: Grand Bay Age: 33 Posts: 307 Rep Power: 40	If any of you watched the 20/20 episode on this, theres a couple workable alternatives out there. after seeing that, i was even more turned off to socialized healthcare.

10-13-2007, 08:32 AM	#9 (permalink)
wilthrill Band Whore Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 823 Rep Power: 46	Lerxt: "Medical insurance is a for-profit industry that makes money by dropping people who are sick and denying procedures that save lives." Actually Lerxt, you just described socialized medicine!!! They aren't for profit but A CENTRAL characteristic of EVERY SOCIALIZED SYSTEM ON EARTH is rationing. EVERY SINGLE TIME SOCIALISM HAS BEEN TRIED (in economics, gov't and health care) it has led to RATIONING! Do you remember the old Soviet Union? Do you remember the lines for BREAD for god's sake? We need MORE competition in health care not less. (a single payer system ELIMINATES ALL competition). We need consumers who are tied to the COST of their medical care because that will encourage them to shop around, take better care of themselves etc. When Big Daddy Gov't PAYS for everything the consumer doesn't feel it and therefore doesn't CARE and thus costs go even HIGHER. A good example is paycheck withholding in income taxes. If every taxpayer had to sit down an write a check to Uncle Sam they'd be stunned (and then angry) at just HOW MUCH they pay in taxes. Instead it gets withheld and most people HAVE NO IDEA what they personally pay in taxes. Take cars for example. For most of us they are a NEED like health care except we NEED them EVERY DAY. If the US gov't said, "we will pay for ANY work that has to be done on your car" would you be more or less likely to take your car to the mechanic? For the record, I drive a battered two color 1997 Nissan 200SX. If the gov't would pay for EVERYTHING, that car would have a two-tone fade black to silver metal flake paint job with maybe some stars painted into the black. It would have 4 20-inch $3000/rim. It would have the best after market carberator that money could buy. It would have a super nice car audio SYSTEM that would be so loud I'd have to have a remote control to turn it up because you wouldn't be able to sit in the car at full volume. It would have the latest Tom Tom GPS although I'd get some porn starlet to do the voiceovers so I could "cop a nut" on my way. It would have fully tinted windows, leather or fur-lined seats. I mean that fucking car would look like something off of "Pimp my Ride" or "Overhauling". It would be sweet!!! Now do I really NEED all of that? Well WHEN I HAVE TO PAY FOR IT the answer is no. But hell if you are going to pick up the tab then maybe I do. We have the same problem in health care. I'm sure some of the doctors on this site can tell stories about all of the UNNECESSARY treatment requested by patients or about all of the hypochondriacs that visit the doctor every time they get a hangnail. And this is in a system that still requires some to actually pay for their care. What do you think will happen when people get the notion that health care is free???? I'm telling you man, socialized medicine is not the way to go. You don't fix someone with sore tonsils by shooting him in the head!!!!!