What to do When Religion wants to kill you? - Page 3

junkernaut · 05-29-2007, 12:40 PM

oh will....name calling? really?!?

and im really only going to address one point in your post, cuz thats all thats relevant to my post.

i expect more thouroughness from you.....i said that in the past every religion has resorted to convert or die tactics, right now it happens to be the radical and misguided muslims who are doing it. in recent history weve had catholics in ireland doing it as well, and basques in spain.

as for falwell and robertson and many of the other televagelists, in reality, they dont speak to the millions of followers they have, theyre actually speaking to a small sliver of their congregations. yes im referring to the radical nutjobs who would blow up abortion clinics and protest soldiers funerals and the funerals of those who dies of aids and such.....this is rev phelps territry, granted, but these are the very people that most televangelists are speaking to. just like most of these radical imams.....theyre not speaking to every muslim in the world, theyre speaking to a small sliver of radical extremists who operate more out of anger instead of love or faith. just like the small group of jews that stood by and convected jesus, just like the branch davidians, the mormons in southern utah, etc etc etc.

junkernaut · 05-29-2007, 12:45 PM

as for the name calling, i would expect that from krafty ken, or even clone, but not from you will......i normally love debating with you because youre normally eloquent and provide good cohesive points to back up your arguments. but when u resort to implying stupidity, it destroys all of what ive just said about you.....it disappoints me

wilthrill · 05-29-2007, 04:24 PM

First of all I was pointing out the OBVIOUS distinction between christianity and Islam and said "you guys can't so stupid as to not see the distinction". That statement SAYS (no implication needed) that you are not stupid and if you must imply something the clear implication is that I am looking for ANOTHER REASON for what you said because I don't believe you to be stupid.

With respect to the point you talk about, I can not, for the life of me, fathom how you (and others on this board) could miss the DISTINCTION between saying "unbelievers will be judged by god in the next life and go to hell" versus "WE will judge unbelievers in this life and kill them"

Falwell (and most other televangelists) are speaking to those who will send money. The VAST MAJORITY of people who send Falwell etc money are NOT radicals. If they were then Falwell would praise people like Tim Mcveigh (blew up OKC) and Eric Rudolph (abortion clinic bomber) etc. Instead Falwell and pretty much every other televangelist universally condemned them!!!

If Falwell and other televangelists were as radical as the radical muslims they would have set up the Timothy Mcveigh scholarship, they would have paid thousands to Mcveigh's family, and they would have produced a TV show glorifying Mcveigh and urging young christians to "martyr" themselves so they could get some virgin action in the afterlife. INSTEAD they condemned Mcveigh.

Can you show me EVEN ONE christain television show that tells its viewers to go kill non-christians? Can you show me ONE christian school that says, "go kill non-christians". Can you show me ONE STATEMENT from EVEN ONE christian televangelist that says, "go kill non-christians"? You can't and THAT is the difference because I can show you literally thousands of examples of muslims doing just that. We can watch Jordanian TV where they show CARTOONS glorifying suicide bombers and encouraging the young to follow suit. We can go to mosques in various locations (hell in Dearborn Michigan) where the "preacher" is saying "go kill the infidels".

And do you know what we WON'T find, junkernaut??? We won't find the "mainstream" muslims out publicly condemning these actions the way Falwell etc condemned McVeigh and Rudolph.

You know in my past it was nice to think that all religions were basically good although they all had some radicals amonst them. I've just gotten to a point (an uncomfortable one to be sure) where I can't reconcile that platitude with the reality of a religion where somewhere over 20% of its adherents want to kill me and the other 80% is DEAD SILENT time and time again unless some Danish cartoonist "insults" their god. JUST ONCE it'd be nice to see MILLIONS of muslims marching to condemn JUST ONE of the terrorist acts (which BTW kill a lot of muslims) of their radicals.

And my question still stands. This thread isn't about just muslims. This thread is about the situation where a "religion" (Islam, White Jesus or make up another if you choose) is threatening to kill you. What does a country that loves freedom of religion do about it? So far, I'm the ONLY ONE in this thread that has even made suggestions. I started this thread actually looking for input. I KNOW some of you must be troubled by at least some of my suggetions...

Mikael · 05-30-2007, 01:51 AM

Wil, for one thing, laying blanket statements out that decry all of Islam because 20% of it's adherents are retarded and don't understand their own religion isn't going to help. What we need to do is keep in contact and support the Muslims who support us.
Also, we need to prevent "hate speech" and punish those who spout religious hatred the same way we do when someone makes a threat against the President's life. If someone talks about Jihad against our people, we shouldn't give them the 'free speech' pass. No. They need to be investigated.
But, please, don't think all Muslims are evil. And don't listen to people who tell you they are.

wilthrill · 06-01-2007, 09:37 AM

Well, where are these muslims who support us? How do I keep in contact when they refuse to show themselves and STAND UP against the radicals? I mean, on a personal level I KNOW and have worked with muslims who seemed to be good people. BUT where is the group that is speaking out AGAINST the terrorists? Who is their leader? How can I support them?
Because the ONLY muslims one sees in the drive-by media are the terrorists or their supporters (CAIR and CNN itself are just two examples).

Also "hate speech". I have a real problem with that term as it has been used to justify THOUGHT crime. So let me be clear. If the speech in question is "my god says you unbelievers will burn in hell" I DON"T have a problem with that and don't think it should be punished. If the speech is "my god commands all good believers to go out and kill the unbelievers" THAT is encitement to violence and not free speech and it should be punished. As I've indicated above, I believe that a religion "crosses the line" when they start telling their followers to go out and kill non-believers.

But you are correct in that we DO need to investigate those who are threatening us.

I don't think all muslims are evil. I judge them on a person by person basis. I DO think their religion has been hijacked by radicals and the mainstream is too COWARDLY to stand up to their radicals and the drive-by media hates America so much that THEY coddle the terrorists with whom they agree. If those "terrorists" were white male southerners who hated black people do you think ABC, CBS, NBC etc might do a few stories about the Jewhater Cartoon Network that the "terrorists" had funded and were running in Tenn, Miss, and Alabama? Do you think that Sixty Minutes, for example, might do a story on the "compounds" being operated by the Church of the White Southern Male? (We actually KNOW that answer because during the early 1990's the drive-by did EXTENSIVE "reporting" on the "militia movement"!) Well now I'm digressing so I'll end by noting that unless I'm misreading (it is possible) your words, your suggestion is even more far reaching and damaging to religious freedom than even mine. You seem to be suggesting (and I agree) that we monitor speech emanating from the church, temple, mosque etc. Where I would restrict "problem speech" (ie that which triggers investigation) to encitement to violence you would cast a wider net by viewing as "problem speech" a category you call "hate speech". Either I misunderstand you OR I'm not as radical in my attack on religious freedom as I previously thought.

05-29-2007, 12:40 PM	#21 (permalink)
junkernaut Screamo for Emo Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 143 Rep Power: 44	oh will....name calling? really?!? and im really only going to address one point in your post, cuz thats all thats relevant to my post. i expect more thouroughness from you.....i said that in the past every religion has resorted to convert or die tactics, right now it happens to be the radical and misguided muslims who are doing it. in recent history weve had catholics in ireland doing it as well, and basques in spain. as for falwell and robertson and many of the other televagelists, in reality, they dont speak to the millions of followers they have, theyre actually speaking to a small sliver of their congregations. yes im referring to the radical nutjobs who would blow up abortion clinics and protest soldiers funerals and the funerals of those who dies of aids and such.....this is rev phelps territry, granted, but these are the very people that most televangelists are speaking to. just like most of these radical imams.....theyre not speaking to every muslim in the world, theyre speaking to a small sliver of radical extremists who operate more out of anger instead of love or faith. just like the small group of jews that stood by and convected jesus, just like the branch davidians, the mormons in southern utah, etc etc etc. __________________ jesus had a great publicist

05-29-2007, 12:45 PM	#22 (permalink)
junkernaut Screamo for Emo Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 143 Rep Power: 44	as for the name calling, i would expect that from krafty ken, or even clone, but not from you will......i normally love debating with you because youre normally eloquent and provide good cohesive points to back up your arguments. but when u resort to implying stupidity, it destroys all of what ive just said about you.....it disappoints me __________________ jesus had a great publicist

05-29-2007, 04:24 PM	#23 (permalink)
wilthrill Band Whore Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 818 Rep Power: 44	First of all I was pointing out the OBVIOUS distinction between christianity and Islam and said "you guys can't so stupid as to not see the distinction". That statement SAYS (no implication needed) that you are not stupid and if you must imply something the clear implication is that I am looking for ANOTHER REASON for what you said because I don't believe you to be stupid. With respect to the point you talk about, I can not, for the life of me, fathom how you (and others on this board) could miss the DISTINCTION between saying "unbelievers will be judged by god in the next life and go to hell" versus "WE will judge unbelievers in this life and kill them" Falwell (and most other televangelists) are speaking to those who will send money. The VAST MAJORITY of people who send Falwell etc money are NOT radicals. If they were then Falwell would praise people like Tim Mcveigh (blew up OKC) and Eric Rudolph (abortion clinic bomber) etc. Instead Falwell and pretty much every other televangelist universally condemned them!!! If Falwell and other televangelists were as radical as the radical muslims they would have set up the Timothy Mcveigh scholarship, they would have paid thousands to Mcveigh's family, and they would have produced a TV show glorifying Mcveigh and urging young christians to "martyr" themselves so they could get some virgin action in the afterlife. INSTEAD they condemned Mcveigh. Can you show me EVEN ONE christain television show that tells its viewers to go kill non-christians? Can you show me ONE christian school that says, "go kill non-christians". Can you show me ONE STATEMENT from EVEN ONE christian televangelist that says, "go kill non-christians"? You can't and THAT is the difference because I can show you literally thousands of examples of muslims doing just that. We can watch Jordanian TV where they show CARTOONS glorifying suicide bombers and encouraging the young to follow suit. We can go to mosques in various locations (hell in Dearborn Michigan) where the "preacher" is saying "go kill the infidels". And do you know what we WON'T find, junkernaut??? We won't find the "mainstream" muslims out publicly condemning these actions the way Falwell etc condemned McVeigh and Rudolph. You know in my past it was nice to think that all religions were basically good although they all had some radicals amonst them. I've just gotten to a point (an uncomfortable one to be sure) where I can't reconcile that platitude with the reality of a religion where somewhere over 20% of its adherents want to kill me and the other 80% is DEAD SILENT time and time again unless some Danish cartoonist "insults" their god. JUST ONCE it'd be nice to see MILLIONS of muslims marching to condemn JUST ONE of the terrorist acts (which BTW kill a lot of muslims) of their radicals. And my question still stands. This thread isn't about just muslims. This thread is about the situation where a "religion" (Islam, White Jesus or make up another if you choose) is threatening to kill you. What does a country that loves freedom of religion do about it? So far, I'm the ONLY ONE in this thread that has even made suggestions. I started this thread actually looking for input. I KNOW some of you must be troubled by at least some of my suggetions... Last edited by wilthrill; 05-29-2007 at 04:33 PM.

05-30-2007, 01:51 AM	#24 (permalink)
Mikael Band Member Band Whore Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Down In a Hole Posts: 905 Rep Power: 43	Wil, for one thing, laying blanket statements out that decry all of Islam because 20% of it's adherents are retarded and don't understand their own religion isn't going to help. What we need to do is keep in contact and support the Muslims who support us. Also, we need to prevent "hate speech" and punish those who spout religious hatred the same way we do when someone makes a threat against the President's life. If someone talks about Jihad against our people, we shouldn't give them the 'free speech' pass. No. They need to be investigated. But, please, don't think all Muslims are evil. And don't listen to people who tell you they are. __________________ I just saved a ton of money on car insurance by switching to no car insurance!!! www.myspace.com/13468360

06-01-2007, 09:37 AM	#25 (permalink)
wilthrill Band Whore Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 818 Rep Power: 44	Well, where are these muslims who support us? How do I keep in contact when they refuse to show themselves and STAND UP against the radicals? I mean, on a personal level I KNOW and have worked with muslims who seemed to be good people. BUT where is the group that is speaking out AGAINST the terrorists? Who is their leader? How can I support them? Because the ONLY muslims one sees in the drive-by media are the terrorists or their supporters (CAIR and CNN itself are just two examples). Also "hate speech". I have a real problem with that term as it has been used to justify THOUGHT crime. So let me be clear. If the speech in question is "my god says you unbelievers will burn in hell" I DON"T have a problem with that and don't think it should be punished. If the speech is "my god commands all good believers to go out and kill the unbelievers" THAT is encitement to violence and not free speech and it should be punished. As I've indicated above, I believe that a religion "crosses the line" when they start telling their followers to go out and kill non-believers. But you are correct in that we DO need to investigate those who are threatening us. I don't think all muslims are evil. I judge them on a person by person basis. I DO think their religion has been hijacked by radicals and the mainstream is too COWARDLY to stand up to their radicals and the drive-by media hates America so much that THEY coddle the terrorists with whom they agree. If those "terrorists" were white male southerners who hated black people do you think ABC, CBS, NBC etc might do a few stories about the Jewhater Cartoon Network that the "terrorists" had funded and were running in Tenn, Miss, and Alabama? Do you think that Sixty Minutes, for example, might do a story on the "compounds" being operated by the Church of the White Southern Male? (We actually KNOW that answer because during the early 1990's the drive-by did EXTENSIVE "reporting" on the "militia movement"!) Well now I'm digressing so I'll end by noting that unless I'm misreading (it is possible) your words, your suggestion is even more far reaching and damaging to religious freedom than even mine. You seem to be suggesting (and I agree) that we monitor speech emanating from the church, temple, mosque etc. Where I would restrict "problem speech" (ie that which triggers investigation) to encitement to violence you would cast a wider net by viewing as "problem speech" a category you call "hate speech". Either I misunderstand you OR I'm not as radical in my attack on religious freedom as I previously thought.